Discussion:
Satellite Rotor Installation - A Conundrum (perhaps slightly OT)
(too old to reply)
Char Jackson
2008-12-03 21:31:08 UTC
Permalink
To summarise, the STAB and SatControl SM3Dx2 instructions
are correct as they stand
May I be permitted to pose a question of clarification?
In the instructions for the installation of STAB HH 90 rotor in
DiSEqC 1.2 mode, it states on page 8, section 6.1,
P = degrees of dish elevation for fixed mount given by the manufacturer
Do most manufacturers provide this information?
What if you have a dish and the manufacturer does not provide this
information?
What value should one use in that case?
Could you plug in information from one of several excellent online
sites such as http://www.dishpointer.com ?
Java Jive
2008-12-04 01:08:08 UTC
Permalink
I'm rather ambivalent about dishpointer. It's certainly a really neat
idea, but:

1) Their elevation calculation for the Moteck SG2100 seems to be
based on the wrong crank angle, see the link in my original post, p3,

"The reading on the Dish scale should be: 40° - DECLINATION ANGLE"

So my Calculator for my home location (using a 'forward' tilt of 0.66,
so this amount of disagreement with a site using latitude as the basis
for tilt is to be expected) for this rotor gives a dish elevation of
33.23, whereas dishpointer gives 23.

Similarly (using the same forward tilt) PanSat PM900S dishpointer 39,
correct is 23.23

2) More generally their calculations show some strange rounding
inconsistencies, for example one 45 crank rotor rounded the elevation
to 38, another to 39. I suspect they're not looking after enough
decimal places or something. I store and manipulate values to full
javascript accuracy, and only round to display (in 100ths, probably a
bit overkill for most setting mechanisms, but I'd rather give slightly
too much accuracy than too little).

3) When, for five points widely scattered over the UK mainland, I
compared the angles of their marker lines with markers drawn on UK
Ordnance Survey maps such as this demo one I produced (although on
this particular one you can't enter the actual position, just drag the
map and the marker around) ...
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Test/UKOrdnance_Survey_with_OpenLayers.html
... I found that although dp would always calculate the azimuth to
within 0.1 degree, there seemed to be a systematic error whereby the
azimuth actually drawn was too great by around 0.5 degree. Not a
problem when using fixed dish, maybe not even a problem for a rotor,
especially when viewed as an initial pointer just to get a signal, but
it's still rather curious that it's there at all, and doesn't lend
confidence.

4) Then there's the business of perspective distortion in satellite
maps. Over the same five points as above, when I compared photos
instead of the map with the OS version, that introduced about another
0.5 degree random error.

5) When I experimented with their widget in a web-page, as often as
not it failed to load and left the map located in New York

6) If you look at the print preview, the absolute killer is the
marker line doesn't print, making the tool much less useful - as you
can't look a computer monitor while perched on top of a ladder angling
the dish, you need a good printout. Also, on the actual site, there
is so much advertisement clutter that essential information is less
obvious in the print preview, and the marker has a block background. I
know how to fix the marker and line printing problem in principal, but
I don't have the control over the widget to allow me to do it.

7) The maps take ages to load. Given that I've already got a local
OS hardcopy, it's actually quicker to use that!

I haven't entirely given up on this, but besides the dishpointer
problems, the state of play is:
1) Already just about there loading UK Ordnance Survey into Open
Layers, that would be UK only though.
2) Google Maps and all derivatives, such as dishpointer, have the
markers don't print problem.
3) Trying to combine the best of both worlds by loading Google into
Open Layers, the marker isn't stable, if you move the map East West,
it's fine, if you move the map North South or zoom, it shies away from
the edges of the viewport like it's frightened of something.
Post by Char Jackson
Could you plug in information from one of several excellent online
sites such as http://www.dishpointer.com ?
Java Jive
2008-12-04 04:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Just remembered I can let you see this for yourselves. Does anyone
have any suggestion as to what the problem might be?
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Test/Google_with_OpenLayers.html

(For some reason, I don't understand, the marker doesn't show either,
and initial position of the end of the line where the marker should be
doesn't agree with the working Ordnance Survey version either - the
problems with the marker and line are particularly odd when one
considers that the code is identical to the OS example except where
they have to differ to load the different layers.)
Post by Java Jive
3) Trying to combine the best of both worlds by loading Google into
Open Layers, the marker isn't stable, if you move the map East West,
it's fine, if you move the map North South or zoom, it shies away from
the edges of the viewport like it's frightened of something.
Michael Chare
2008-12-04 19:41:16 UTC
Permalink
To summarise, the STAB and SatControl SM3Dx2 instructions
are correct as they stand
May I be permitted to pose a question of clarification?
In the instructions for the installation of STAB HH 90 rotor in
DiSEqC 1.2 mode, it states on page 8, section 6.1,
P = degrees of dish elevation for fixed mount given by the manufacturer
Do most manufacturers provide this information?
What if you have a dish and the manufacturer does not provide this
information?
What value should one use in that case?
The angle you have to get right is the 'Polar mount main axis angle' as
shown on

http://www.satsig.net/ssazelm.htme

If you don't set this angle correct the dish won't track the arc of the
satellites properly.
--
Michael Chare
J G Miller
2008-12-04 20:32:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Chare
The angle you have to get right is the 'Polar mount main axis angle'
as shown on
http://www.satsig.net/ssazelm.htme
^
An "e" too many!

<http://www.satsig.net/ssazelm.htm>

That is a useful site. Thanks for the link.
Java Jive
2008-12-31 16:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Since you (and one or two others) asked, I've taken this to test
level:

http://www.macfh.co.uk/Test/SatelliteCalculator.html

As this is still at testing stage, I should explain one or two
'features' that still need attention:

You create the maps by entering settings into the calculator as
normal, and then pressing Submit. Obviously this is not the intended
final mechanism.

As part of testing, two maps will be created. The left one is
potentially worldwide from Google, and is intended for the final page,
the right one is UK only from the UK's national mapping agency, the
Ordnance Survey, and isn't intended for the final version. If a
location in the UK is chosen, and as long as you choose "Calculate UK
Grid Variance" in the calculator, the lines drawn on the two maps
should agree to about than 1/10000 degree. If a location outside the
UK is chosen, the OS map will go to an area on the NE coast of Britain
and sulk! You can just ignore it for locations outside the UK.

If you wish to center the maps and markers on a new location,
<alt-double-click> on either map will extract the coordinates of the
point clicked, set them into the calculator, and recentre both maps
and markers on the new point.

As there are temporarily two maps, loading will be even slower than
with one.

For some reason or other, the markers are not drawn at the highest
zooms, though fortunately the lines still are. Still puzzling over
that one. Any suggestions for a fix welcome.

Constructive feedback gratefully received.
Post by Char Jackson
Could you plug in information from one of several excellent online
sites such as http://www.dishpointer.com ?
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